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Old Apr 07, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32   #521
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Originally Posted by Theus
The only reason you MM's are bitching now is the fact that you have to worry about E-Management.
People really need to get this through their heads. All necros are NOT MMs.
Some of us like to go away from the traditional usage of a class.
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Old Apr 07, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34   #522
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
0_0 Your rant made me cry
Yes, i'm ranting. Last night when i was arguing that the SR nerf is going the wrong way i got called a PvE scrub one time too often. From now on i have very little respect to people, who need to have Death Penalty removed from their precious HoH to be able to play.

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Originally Posted by ensoriki
1. You don't like Rits so its like, WHO cares about their E-management, I can say the same about Necros, although I do somewhat like them.
I like my Rit, but Spawning is too closely designed to work for Spirit communing (and minions). Channeling (before Bloodsong was moved) and Restoration have gotten the short end of the stick. Rits deserve a better primary attribute (or make ele glyphs work on Binding Rituals)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
2. Energy storage is powerful? Dude look at the Eles spells 1 they cost alute without Dual attunements, 2 Exhaustion on numberous skills means they may not even HAVE all that energy. Im still waiting for Expertise Touch nerf......someday. Expertise also doesnt gain energy so you will DEPLETE even if you DO kill something
Eles used to be prime Heal Party spammers. The best pressure Mesmers i've seen in Pvp were Ele/Me from a Korean guild (most likely WarMachine). They are the original endess energy class until Ether Prodigy got hit very hard.
Expertise has seen brighter days during the Toucher & Thumpers days, but still both primaries are pretty powerful and don't have a condition like needing something to die to have an effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
3. Fast casting is fine actually, Increased spell casting Speed which means if you take another secondary you can spike with an me/Ele party or Quick save with a Me/mo or piss people off with a Me/N.
Casting spells fast is nice, waiting the other 45seconds of a minute for the skills to reload is boring. I miss the time, when Inspiration spells actually delivered energy. Except Leech Signet most skills of that line received triple nerfs. Add a SR-like effect when casting for each reloading skill would actually result into faster gameplay!


Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
Most mass energy gain thinks have a pre requisite, and ya Soul Reaping does but

1. In pve things were dying all over the damn place

2. In Pvp if there was a large MASS of things dieing in between 5 seconds that makes it the necro ruined now since it has to wait 5 seconds in pvp now...theres a problem.

3. Soul reaping still works in pve MM is not dead, other necro builds -_- if they were so Incredibely costly that that 1 attribute could make it seem invisible and now makes a dent of 5 seconds -_-. Kill something every 5 seconds, get a sin/dervish/interrupter...
1. lvl24-28 mobs don't die that fast
2. that's what the change was for (though if there is mass death of players either your or the enemies group has other problems than the necro's energy pool)
3. SR works, but it's like running around with your shoe laces tied together. MMs are the least affected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
This change isnt Necro destroying in PVP unless something was already broken enough for the necro to abuse it...

In pve, MM's are already PLENTY powerful...maybe to much -_- Other necro builds should bring a skill e-management anyways.

I can compare necro SR to Assassin Critical striking and unless I bring skills SR can be far better.
The use of MMs in the final PvE missions and "elite" areas is limited.

The amount of professions and skills has brought a complexity to PvP that can never be balanced. That's why i am preaching to change the whole PvP game mechanic to Sealed Deck for serious play (HA / GvG).
Last edited by seut; Apr 08, 2007 at 12:00 AM // 00:00..
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Old Apr 07, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38   #523
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
0_0 Your rant made me cry
2. Energy storage is powerful? Dude look at the Eles spells 1 they cost alute without Dual attunements, 2 Exhaustion on numberous skills means they may not even HAVE all that energy.
lol Eles ES IS powerful. I run a GoR nuker with a few other high energy cost spells with only ONE attunement. By the time im done with 1 gropu I still have 90% of my energy. If youre running low on energy on an ele you need to learn to play them better.
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Old Apr 07, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43   #524
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Originally Posted by seut
The amount of professions and skills has brought a complexity to PvP that can never be balanced. That's why i am preaching to change the whole PvP game mechanic to Sealed Deck for serious play (HA / GvG).
That would RULE! Sealed Deck is ftw!
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Old Apr 08, 2007, 02:00 AM // 02:00   #525
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Originally Posted by brian78wa
lol Eles ES IS powerful. I run a GoR nuker with a few other high energy cost spells with only ONE attunement. By the time im done with 1 gropu I still have 90% of my energy. If youre running low on energy on an ele you need to learn to play them better.
Obviously your idea of high energy cost differs from mine. That or you have no idea how to nuke. If an ele with only 1 Attunement for e-management and Glyph of Renewal has 90% energy left after the fight then either you cast once every 15 seconds or should stop making up bullshit.

Quote:
Arcaine Echo
Awww, the poor necro can't arcane echo high e-cost skills anymore. If thats the best thing you can come up with to counter the SR nerf then you should stop playing necro and get a clue what energy management on a char without an overpowered primary attribute.
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Old Apr 08, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48   #526
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Soul reaping is nerfed a bit too much. I think it's a good step to the right way, but maybe lower the max energy gain from certain levels. Spirits have like lvl 8-10 so you gain a max of 16 energy from a lvl 20-up and only 8 energy max from lvl 8 and with the spirits energy half you gain only 4, same with minions but only gain 75% from the max energy, so you gain something like there lvl 15 and you gain 12 energy max but 75% of it you gain max 9, maybe even lower it to 50%, those unended energy builds would be nerfed to and it would not hurt too much in PvE.
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Old Apr 08, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54   #527
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Originally Posted by Evilsod
Obviously your idea of high energy cost differs from mine. That or you have no idea how to nuke. If an ele with only 1 Attunement for e-management and Glyph of Renewal has 90% energy left after the fight then either you cast once every 15 seconds or should stop making up bullshit.
LOL. if you honestly think thats its hard to cast all your spells as an ele without dual attune and not have alot of energy left over then YOURE the one that cant nuke not me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
Awww, the poor necro can't arcane echo high e-cost skills anymore. If thats the best thing you can come up with to counter the SR nerf then you should stop playing necro and get a clue what energy management on a char without an overpowered primary attribute.
Necros attribute is MEANT for energy management and its not over powered. Like MANY people have pointed out necros dont have the best E-Management skills for themselves. The nerf that was done was a bit much. Like Ive said in other posts the solution to this is not to put a time constraint on SR but to not allow energy from spirits since this is how it is being abused in PvP. And This wasnt my only counter this was ONE example so before you go posting telling people they shouldnt play a class maybe you should read the full post and actually understand its meaning. Or if you cant understand cause your like 5 or something ask.
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Old Apr 08, 2007, 11:43 AM // 11:43   #528
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Originally Posted by Miral
agh please take your time and make some sort of effort to make your posts legible.
that said....
You say to come up with a new build. But the PvE problem with this change isn't any specific build, it is the whole primary attribute of the necromancer. The only way to come up with a new build to not worry about the nerf would be to not put points in soul reaping at all. In which case, you might as well take an elementalist or mesmer or ritualist primary. And Signet of Lost Souls... It is nice, but it has a very strict conditional (under 50% health but not dead) which against non-boss mobs can be real hard to catch at times...

As for your argument about monks: I have a healer. He almost never runs out of energy. He doesn't use a single e-management skill. between powerful healing spells like Word of Healing, and the primary attribute that increases healing even more, I can heal an almost-dead party member to full health for 5 energy. So I can take a full party of 8, over half of which are squishy casters and assassins, PLUS two allies that I must keep alive, and go an entire battle without any deaths and still have near full energy leftover at the end of the battle. Sounds kind of like how necromancers USED to manage... you know, before this nerf...

Also just to note, necros were not the only class that had a powerful energy management primary. dervishes, assassins, paragons, rangers, elementalists... all gain energy in some form from their primary attribute. And now all are far more powerful than soul reaping.... PLUS have really good skills linked to the primary attributes!
first of sorry for the spelling :P

second, hard to catch? on a 1/4 cast and 8 second rechard, the only time that would b hard is if u faced leave 0's. please.

soul reapping isnt dead its fixed, yes not in the way i wanted but its fixed as so its not abused in PVP/PVE, no constant energy for BH necros and no constant energy for necros from MM's in PVE. why should one class always stay on more energy than a warrior using just adren skills. it needed that nerf big time and it got it. about a new build, u thats a lie about no SR attrabutes, u need it u honistly do. MM's still work but u msut watch ur energy. same with most builds. but u coudl think up more with the lieks of reapers mark and sig of lost souls thats waht about 18 energy for 10 energy not bad.

and ur monk post u can not look after a full team of 8 + 2 allies all by ur self with no energy maintainment. unless in ur team u have all X/P for buffs. u need maintenment, even the best monsk will tell u this. and expesahly with healing, i could see it with protection, but lets not open up the Healing vs prot battle now. i run a monk, i know im not the best but im surely not the worst. i run on a basic 36 energy and yes i to run into prioblems. i get flamed for not healing, but u dont need to heal when the ele has only lost 10hp do u?. tho most of the time i an have 15+ energy ther er tiems when i have to switch up to help me but i would run into bigger problems if i didn't bring GoLE. U jsut cant run a monk with energy maintenment. and all this talk about no deaths is trash, of couse ppl die, ive had bad bays and i bet u have to, we all have had bad pugs and no monk is uber where he can run around healing with out energy problems. sorry enougth about monks

yes they all do but none so much as the necro, no one gaisn 16 energy whe ever some one died did they dervs gain 1-3 energy for soem moves and stuff, ( not to sure on there aintainment) Paragons have now been nerfed to death almost but there energy maintainment was nice, but didnt give as much back as necros did, eles they had big storage, but there maintainment was a pain they had attuments but u could still run out easly and the other one's r elites with can ruin some builds. most caused exaustion or hurt them after use. rangers ahve a nice maintainment but they still run low, cos most of there skill scan cost 15-25 energy and when 30 is ur base thats a bummer.



Quote:
Absolutely can.
Arcaine Echo =10
SS = 15
Echoed SS = 15
Reckless Haste 15 I think
= 55 right there and thats before they even really start attacking you.
so your down to 0 energy and have to wait till one gets down to 50% then you get 8 energy back from sig so now youre up maybe 15 if youre lucky since you still have to cast more skills once your energy finally charges enough. By the time they die you may have about 10 or so then you gain a one time energy gain of 12 or so depending on SR. So you end up with 20-22 then by the time next group comes you dont have enough energy to cast anything.
its actual arcaine echo is 15 but there u go :P

u dont need to echo SS, it was an added bonus used because of SR, sou can change that to GoLE meanign its,

5 for GoLE
5 for SS
5 for RH

thats 15 done, then SS will re charge and a second can b reaplyed so uve lsot 30 energy rather than ur 60, see it saves u up, Echo is nice but not needed as its not as if SS has a cool down time of 30 secs or something silly is it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
Awww, the poor necro can't arcane echo high e-cost skills anymore. If thats the best thing you can come up with to counter the SR nerf then you should stop playing necro and get a clue what energy management on a char without an overpowered primary attribute.
Preach dude preach or what ever the other guy said :P. i so agree with u here, u dont need Echo no more take goLE for the woay, ur see more N/E now but less necros using Firestorm and flare :P
Last edited by olly123; Apr 08, 2007 at 11:48 AM // 11:48..
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Old Apr 08, 2007, 01:27 PM // 13:27   #529
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LOL. if you honestly think thats its hard to cast all your spells as an ele without dual attune and not have alot of energy left over then YOURE the one that cant nuke not me.
Right... because obviously using Meteor Shower (twice?) and a Rodgorts Invocation, then maybe Fireball or Liquid Flame... nuke? Yes. High energy? Yes. Leaves you with 90%? Not a chance in hell. Without other e-management i think you still the 1 who has no idea how to nuke if your using Glyph of Renewal. Come back when your using Glyph of Energy if you think you'll remain at 90%.

Quote:
Necros attribute is MEANT for energy management and its not over powered. Like MANY people have pointed out necros dont have the best E-Management skills for themselves. The nerf that was done was a bit much. Like Ive said in other posts the solution to this is not to put a time constraint on SR but to not allow energy from spirits since this is how it is being abused in PvP. And This wasnt my only counter this was ONE example so before you go posting telling people they shouldnt play a class maybe you should read the full post and actually understand its meaning. Or if you cant understand cause your like 5 or something ask.
Whats your point? It is an energy management attribute. And like all energy management you can't spam spells faster than you can gain it back. Try playing a boon prot and see how far spamming RoF gets you, no doubt you'll be back here whining that Mantra of Recall/Energy Drain are too weak for you to spam constantly. SR has been brought slightly closer to the level of a balanced energy management. As other people have said... nerfing SR so that it didn't gain anything at all from spirits *would* completely destroy it in PvP. From your past posts i'd say your closer to 5 than i am.
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Old Apr 08, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43   #530
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The SR nerf has gimped the PvE curse necro. Echo and SS aside GoLE and SoLS don't even begin to approach the problem. In order to be effective and support the party properly you must be able to hit at least 80% of the mob with your chosen hexes. Considering that on average you're looking at 10-15 energy for the good hexes and in the later areas of the game you have mob sizes of 7-10 you begin to see the problem. Three spells at a reduced cost and a conditional, piddly 8 energy gain from SoLS is a drop in the bucket. What this boils down to is that necros are being penalized for making their parties effective. I'm sorry I thought necro's were support casters. Silly me. Had I known that I was not supposed to enable my party to take out mobs quickly and efficiently I would have been playing soo much differently. If my hexes enable my party to take out 4 enemies in five seconds, that is 4 enemies die within five seconds of one another, at a cost to me of between 40 and 60 energy then why should I not gain my 40 to 60 energy back? Considering I don't have the ability to buff my max energy like eles do that 40-60 energy hurts. Arena Net screwed the pooch on this one. They went heavy handed when a lighter touch should have been used , anyone who says otherwise is either playing fan boy or being a troll plain and simple.
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Old Apr 08, 2007, 03:28 PM // 15:28   #531
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Originally Posted by Str0b0
They went heavy handed when a lighter touch should have been used , anyone who says otherwise is either playing fan boy or being a troll plain and simple.
Right, nice blanket statement. I have no problems playing any Necro bars now, as opposed to then.

Spend less time complaining and more time studying the game to see that there are ways to manage your energy, explained over and over.

Or just quit. I won't miss any of you.
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Old Apr 08, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39   #532
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Originally Posted by akazukin cha cha
Right, nice blanket statement. I have no problems playing any Necro bars now, as opposed to then.

Spend less time complaining and more time studying the game to see that there are ways to manage your energy, explained over and over.

Or just quit. I won't miss any of you.
QFMFT!

Preach on good sir, preach on!
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Old Apr 08, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00   #533
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Right... because obviously using Meteor Shower (twice?) and a Rodgorts Invocation, then maybe Fireball or Liquid Flame... nuke? Yes. High energy? Yes. Leaves you with 90%? Not a chance in hell. Without other e-management i think you still the 1 who has no idea how to nuke if your using Glyph of Renewal. Come back when your using Glyph of Energy if you think you'll remain at 90%.
again LOL I use MS twice with GoR. We'll just agree youre not to bright and end this argument. I know how to nuke without using all my energy. For example In FoW with 3 eles Im the ONLY one not calling out low energy cause I dont have it. Not because im not nuking its because I KNOW how to nuke properly.



Whats your point? It is an energy management attribute. And like all energy management you can't spam spells faster than you can gain it back. Try playing a boon prot and see how far spamming RoF gets you, no doubt you'll be back here whining that Mantra of Recall/Energy Drain are too weak for you to spam constantly. SR has been brought slightly closer to the level of a balanced energy management. As other people have said... nerfing SR so that it didn't gain anything at all from spirits *would* completely destroy it in PvP. From your past posts i'd say your closer to 5 than i am.[/QUOTE]

You obviouly dont pvp much do you? Spirits is how SR is being abused. This nerf was from PvP complainers and they complain that necros have too much energy in PvP. How do you think they get this?? SPIRITS you know Spiritway. So correcting this will solve it. And for the record im 28 and married tyvm. Now again Ill say we'll just agree that youre not to bright and be done with this.
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Old Apr 08, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52   #534
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Ok so this is what now, 5th paragon nerf in a row?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
Paragon:
  • "They're on Fire!": now only affects party members.
  • Anthem of Envy: damage bonus increased to 10..25.
  • Anthem of Fury: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds, now only affects party members.
  • Anthem of Flame: now only affects party members.
  • Anthem of Guidance: now only affects party members.
  • Crippling Anthem: now only affects party members.
This small adjustment to the Paragon was made primarily to deal with Spirit/Chant issues. Since all Spirit attacks count as attack skills, these Chants were making offensive Spirits more powerful than they were intended. Anthem of Fury also received a slight recharge decrease to allow it to fuel Echoes more effectively, and Anthem of Envy's damage bonus was increased to reflect the difficulty of meeting the skill's condition.
You could have easily made any of these affect only non-spirit allies like some of the echoes do(Finale of Restoration). By changing it to party members instead, now all of these shouts bring 1 or 2 (max 4) energy in alliance battles. Why did you break it for AB and PvE, when teh spirit issue could be resolved by changing it from allies to non-spirit allies?

The special hint that you have no idea what the hell you are doing is this:
You claim the changes were because of spirits.
Quote:
Anthem of Fury: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds, now only affects party members.
Wow didn't know spirits used adrenaline. Better change "Fall Back!" to party only as well, with that 33% speed boost spirits move way too fast.

About SR: One death every 10 sec at 12 SR still doubles your energy gain, and is thus about as effective as Expertise, 1 death every 5 sec still makes it the best energy engine.
Last edited by Spura; Apr 08, 2007 at 09:21 PM // 21:21..
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Old Apr 08, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45   #535
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Originally Posted by brian78wa
You obviouly dont pvp much do you? Spirits is how SR is being abused. This nerf was from PvP complainers and they complain that necros have too much energy in PvP. How do you think they get this?? SPIRITS you know Spiritway. So correcting this will solve it. And for the record im 28 and married tyvm. Now again Ill say we'll just agree that youre not to bright and be done with this.
it was not only in PVP that necros SR was being abused. have u not seen the MM's, they had a constant 30+ energy, if u didnt then u dont know how to MM. they also provided that other necro in ur team the aditional energy making it as bad as spirt abuse. so learn to live with it, cos it got nerfed for both plays and wont b swaped back.

Quote:
About SR: One death every 10 sec at 12 SR still doubles your energy gain, and is thus about as effective as Expertise, 1 death every 5 sec still makes it the best energy engine.
so true
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Old Apr 08, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36   #536
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Originally Posted by Str0b0
The SR nerf has gimped the PvE curse necro. Echo and SS aside GoLE and SoLS don't even begin to approach the problem. In order to be effective and support the party properly you must be able to hit at least 80% of the mob with your chosen hexes. Considering that on average you're looking at 10-15 energy for the good hexes and in the later areas of the game you have mob sizes of 7-10 you begin to see the problem. Three spells at a reduced cost and a conditional, piddly 8 energy gain from SoLS is a drop in the bucket. What this boils down to is that necros are being penalized for making their parties effective. I'm sorry I thought necro's were support casters. Silly me. Had I known that I was not supposed to enable my party to take out mobs quickly and efficiently I would have been playing soo much differently. If my hexes enable my party to take out 4 enemies in five seconds, that is 4 enemies die within five seconds of one another, at a cost to me of between 40 and 60 energy then why should I not gain my 40 to 60 energy back? Considering I don't have the ability to buff my max energy like eles do that 40-60 energy hurts. Arena Net screwed the pooch on this one. They went heavy handed when a lighter touch should have been used , anyone who says otherwise is either playing fan boy or being a troll plain and simple.
My primary character is a necro -the most played time, the first to reach the endgame areas in all three campaigns, the one with the most skills unlocked, the most xp, etc.

What possible reason would I have to say "This change isn't really so bad" when - if I am simply lying to appease Anet - it would only harm my character? I want to understand my motivation here, because what you're suggesting doesn't make sense.

Is it not possible to address your disagreements without referring to those with whom you disagree as "fanboys" or "trolls?" Surely, if soul reaping is in such a terrible state right now, you could easily demonstrate that without resorting to insults.
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Old Apr 09, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03   #537
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Originally Posted by Spura
Ok so this is what now, 5th paragon nerf in a row?

You could have easily made any of these affect only non-spirit allies like some of the echoes do(Finale of Restoration). By changing it to party members instead, now all of these shouts bring 1 or 2 (max 4) energy in alliance battles. Why did you break it for AB and PvE, when teh spirit issue could be resolved by changing it from allies to non-spirit allies?

The special hint that you have no idea what the hell you are doing is this:
You claim the changes were because of spirits.

Wow didn't know spirits used adrenaline. Better change "Fall Back!" to party only as well, with that 33% speed boost spirits move way too fast.

About SR: One death every 10 sec at 12 SR still doubles your energy gain, and is thus about as effective as Expertise, 1 death every 5 sec still makes it the best energy engine.
Shouts/Chants working on NPCs is (was) an issue in PvP...

Thank god the game isn't balanced around AB.....
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Old Apr 09, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05   #538
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Since when has legitimate complaining been 'being a cry baby'.

Necros are just expressing their feelings at an unfair nerf to their primary attribute (that as has been stated is 23 months old and has only had an issue with the current pvp builds).

If you're looking for cry babies why not call out the origianal pvpers that went whining to anet about necros in the first place and got this nerf for us...

Ahhh different story huh?

it seems that both sides have legitimate reasons to complain and calling them 'cry babies' is just inflammatory and uneccessary.

separate pvp and pve skills and the problem vanishes...

or is that too easy.
Last edited by Abarra; Apr 09, 2007 at 02:11 AM // 02:11..
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Old Apr 09, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13   #539
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Originally Posted by olly123
its actual arcaine echo is 15 but there u go :P

u dont need to echo SS, it was an added bonus used because of SR, sou can change that to GoLE
Why on earth would you not Echo SS? Get the max dmg going on all foes by echoing it. GoLe only reduces cost not kills them faster
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Old Apr 09, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16   #540
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Originally Posted by olly123
it was not only in PVP that necros SR was being abused. have u not seen the MM's, they had a constant 30+ energy, if u didnt then u dont know how to MM. they also provided that other necro in ur team the aditional energy making it as bad as spirt abuse. so learn to live with it, cos it got nerfed for both plays and wont b swaped back.
Actually it IS PvP that brought on the nerf to SR. And wtf do people keep bringing up MMS? NOt all necros are MMs.
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